Now go on, shoot me down for being a male chauvinist. Perhaps you are right, but if it is conditioning, then why is this despite the fact the my mother drank pints? I think it comes down to what we males think looks and appears sexy. It's all to do with instinct.
I know a lot of people in the beer world want to try and eliminate this natural sexist bias. The beer world seems to be healthily full of moderate, liberal, anti-bigoted people. It is this very fact that makes the whole scene so damn friendly and enjoyable, so I'm not asking for you to treat my inner feelings as acceptable or right, but just to say that I know what turns me on and women drinking beer ain't it.
My point here is that I think the greater general male population would agree with me. The greater female population knows this, at least subliminally. Women also want men to find them sexy, to flirt with them and eventually form a relationship and find love. Most women believe that the first stage of this is to look sexy so as to attract attention. It's just a courtship ritual that has parallels throughout the animal kindom. This courtship ritual most often occurs in a social drinking environment. Many people don't really give it a second thought unless they have some sort of anti-sexist agenda.
Ignoring the most powerful of human instincts, the thing that put us here and the thing we will do that might generate more of us, is ignoring a powerful driver for most people. Sex is more important to most people than beer. Even for me it just about wins. Give up sex or give up beer? Drink beer and never have sex? Sorry beer, I know which I'd choose and I suspect the rest of the population would agree. OK, perhaps for women they would prefer to think along the lines of love, relationships, marriage, children and life companionship, but ultimately, it's sex.
Women don't want to look un-sexy and so here is one reason they don't drink beer.
Now, please go easy on me, I'm expecting to be flamed here, at least consider the fact that I've got the balls to post this.
This was provoked by Kristy's post on the BitterSweet partnership blog. I'd have commented there but you seem to need an account - I already have too many on-line accounts.
28 comments:
Have to disagree. The only thing sexier than a woman drinking a opint is a woman drinking a litre. In a drindl.
Funny you should mention that, our lass always takes wine to her parents or drinks wine when her mum is around - because she thinks she should.
when ever we go out she drinks halves of real ale, she wont drink pints because she thinks she looks "too blokey" whether that is true or not i don't know, what i do know is i dont like seeing lasses with those big jugs or lager in local chain pubs.
Ron, I like women drinking beer - it's just not sexy. I like the independence statement that it makes about them. I just don't find it sexy.
Moggy, indeed, Ann doesn't like to drink at all in front of her parents - they are almost teetotal. Mind you, the sex subject is also something of a taboo.....
Hi Dave
Interesting perspective.......
What intrigues me though is that is it beer that's not sexy or the way that we traditionally drink it?
Am making an assumption from your post that a goblet of Belgian Beer is sexy - is that because of the beer or the glass? Would a Champagne flute of Carling be more or less attractive than a pitcher of Boon Frambroise?
At BitterSweet one of the things we are looking at is stylish new beer glassware as we know how important image is to women but do you think that you could never see a woman drinking beer as being attractive?
Kristy, thanks for picking up on the goblet thing. Yes, from a aesthetic point of view a classy shaped glass of Carling is better than a pint pot of Boon Frambroise.
Yes, I can see the possibility of women drinking beer being attractive. For me we could learn a lot from the Belgians in this respect. Glass shape would have a lot to do with it. But brand is also important, so we need sexy brands too.
"I find that beer drinking women don't look sexy."
You are drinking with the wrong women Dave. Some of the sexiest women I know and have known, drink beer. Mind you, I'd say it's the woman that's sexy, not the drink.
I think maybe all that advertising has got to you. (-;
As for having the balls to write this, I take it, given the subject matter, that is a tongue in cheek comment?
PS. Ron is spot on.
If there was a range of beer glasses for women how would you feel about stocking them as a publican?
When I was a licensee I was all for stocking the minimum amount of glasses possible, that were all toughened, stacked easily and went through the dishwasher - then I moved to being a brand owner.........
If there was a wider range of glasses, as they use on the continent, would you be happy to take them all on board?
Tandleman, to some extent the whole piece is deliberately provocative and a little tongue in cheek. It's perhaps not what I want to really believe myself. I think what I am saying applies to a large proportion of the population. It's easy to defend a liberal beer lovers position and ignore the winder instinct of the population at large.
Kristy, personally as a publican I'm happy to stock a wider range of glasses. But I'm not a normal publican. I have Duvel, Chimay, Westmalle, Erdinger, Timmermans, Lindeboom, Flensburger and my own branded glasses. I'm thinking of increasing next year. Blanche Du Bruxells won't supply branded glasses.
It's a problem in the industry putting beer into the right glass. There is a masculine inverted snobbery thing in this country and of course many pubs don't train their staff right.
My barman refuses to put halves of my stronger beer in stemmed glasses because it is real ale - instilled dogma.
Yes it's a problem getting a pub to use the correct branded glass and more could be done to make publicans realise just how important this is.
Dave, being anti PC these days can make you a target. Still, worth a go I guess and for Kristy, better glassware for all is important. It isn't just women that like to drink out of decent glasses. I hahe long campaigned for better glassware. See my blog.
There is a good aim in the BitterSweet Partnership, but treading that tightrope that might tumble you into condescension and stereotype isn't easy. Like being anti PC in fact. Like Dave's post, worth a go though.
"The beer world seems to be healthily full of moderate, liberal, anti-bigoted people". - unless it comes to what counts as good beer! ;)
Seriously though, I can kind of see where you are coming from, but I met Mrs Velkyal in one of Prague's best pubs and we spent a lot of our courting time in pubs, drinking beer, in half-litres - perhaps it is cultural?
If I may say so, one of the things that turns me on about my beloved wife is the fact that she is knowledgeable about beer and is happy to learn more, try different things and she always gives an honest opinion about the beers she tries.
The sexiest thing a woman can do is talk to me and not tell me to bugger off. As for what she's drinking, so long as she drinks enough of it to find me witty and attractive, I'm none too bothered.
Oh and you have branded glassware at your gaff Dave? I'm on my way.
That's great to hear Dave - I wish more pubs followed your fine example!!
You are right Tandleman, it is a fine line indeed and one we endeavour to stay the right side of - we'd love to see glassware improve generally not just for women
And Cooking if you buy a case of Kasteel Cru from Only Fine Beer they'll send you two free glasses http://www.onlyfinebeer.co.uk/beer/1646/ although I suspect the beer might not be to your particular taste........
I believe what you're discussing is a British thing. For the most part, every woman I've been with has drank pints, both US ones and British ones. I don't find anything terribly unfeminine about a good looking, big boobed hottie drinking pints of beer. What I find unattractive and unfeminine is some whore pounding cocktails and getting so rat arsed she can't stand.
£42.79 (with p&p) for 24? Crikey Kirsty. Why, when I can get 24 bottles of grog for a fiver and neck 'em out of a glass I've nicked from Dave's pub?
I'm wondering how come anyone is looking at what a lass is drinking. Why, when there is a cleveage to gorp at?
Women who buy me pints of beer are very sexy. Can't say I'm bothered about what they drink! And when I'm wearing my beer goggles I really give even less of a damn!
Washy (The Moderate Drinker)
I think women drinking pints are sexy as hell.
Mind, I'm not convinced that women necessarily find men drinking pints of beer sexy either. Research plz.
Barm, good point. Do women find pint drinking men sexy? I suspect not. Worthy research that I'll have to check out with the BitterSweet lasses.
Morning - Kristy from BitterSweet here.
Barm - it's a very interesting point you raise.
It's not a question that we've ever asked directly but I have a hunch probably not based on the research we do have. Women tell us that drinking pints is 'chavvy', unattractive and leads to beer bellies so I'm guessing that this isn't necessarily seen as sexy in men!!
At BitterSweet we want to challenge the myths that women have about beer and show that it can be a stylish drink choice with lower alcohol and often less calories than they think. If we could do this then men drinking beer could suddenly become a lot more attractive........
Women beer drinkers I know, including myself, could care less who thinks we are sexy. If someone judges us based on what kind of glass we drink our beer in, or whether we drink beer at all, that says more about the person judging us. Superficial ideas like that will never be sexy, no matter how you serve them. Ultimately, I think this attitude might be specifically British, and tied to outmoded ideas.
Impymalting is absolutely right. It's a particularly British prejudice. Any time I've been in pubs with female friends from other countries, they've been perfectly happy to drink beer. And neat single malt whisky, for that matter.
Impy, glad you commented and were kind to me - I expected more of an attack that that.
Of course beer drinkers don't care about what people think of them. It's not the beer drinking women that we should be concerned about.
Just because I don't think women drinking beer is sexy does not mean I don't respect women who do. Indeed, I will confess to having seen women taking their clothes off in a lap dancing bar and thinking it's sexy, but I wouldn't want to form a relationship with such women. The boundaries are fuzzy and all over the place.
I admit there are various national variations all the way from Belgium, who have in my view the most cosmopolitan outlook towards beer, through to our own macho stuffy male dominated beer world. I still think there is an inevitable unglamorous side to beer which we could work on more.
Finally, please remember everyone, there is a danger of looking at this from our narrow, "all my beer drinking female friends" perspective. The beer lovers world is different, and many people are not like us.
56% of men would not be impressed if their date ordered beer. I'm not saying that is right, just a fact.
During writing this piece I asked Ann to read it. She checks much of my work, thankfully. I asked her to tell me not to post it if it might offend. She said I should post if it's what I believed.
More importantly she asked me why, if it's what I believe, I'm always trying to get her to drink beer. An interesting question that I'm still trying to understand the answer to.
Hi Dave, I think you are right-- that unglam side to beer could use a revamp, but not a complete overhaul (beer doesn't have to be pink, etc.).
I don't know where these statistics come from-- I'm skeptical of anything coming out of the Coors-based research. I'm not part of the Cosmo-reading, red-carpet-worshipping world which I think is the demographic the Bittersweet Partnership is interested in. I bet if we did our own research, randomly at pubs in London we would come up with very different numbers. It's all in how you phrase the question after all!
I'm not going to bother to flame you on this Dave because I think you've expressed your own personal opinion about what you find attractive as opposed to saying women shouldn't drink beer/pints.
However, what I will say is I've had more marriage/indecent proposals based on what I do for a living, whilst holding a pint in my hand, than I ever had in my younger and significantly more svelte years! So I think I can quite confidently say that there's a large proportion of the male population that disagrees with you!
However, flip comments aside, like Impymalting, I really couldn't give a damn about anyone who judges me on the glass that I drink from, or that I drink beer, just as I would expect them not to give a t*ss about my opinion on their drinking habits.
And sadly, it is a peculiarly British thing - having just come back from NYC I spent quite a few hours in craft beer bars drinking a pint and minding my own business with the New York Times, no one thought anything of it and I had some lovely conversations with blokes who were in the bar (merely because there weren't any women sitting anywhere near me I hasten to add) who actually really enjoyed that a visiting women felt comfortable enough to sit by herself and enjoy a beer.
It's such a shame that this sort of attitude is still so ingrained in the British mentality and, with all due respect, I believe it's something that's dying out.
And I'd also like to know where the statistic of '56% of men would not be impressed if their date ordered beer' came from - it's a new one on me and I'd like to know where it originated.
Hi, Kristy here again.
Melissa and Dave, not sure where the 56% comes from stat from – but just wanted to clarify that 44% of men we recently surveyed answered that they would be pleasantly surprised if their date ordered a beer (they were asked to chose from a range of statements which reflected how they felt, it wasn’t a yes or no answer). The research was carried out of over 2,000 men, by independent market research company One Poll.
Melissa – it’s great that you and Impymalting don’t care who judges you, but it seems a lot of women in the UK do and it is something that matters to them. Obviously some women do like beer, but with only 13% of UK beer serves attributed to women, don’t you think it’s time things changed – and fast?
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