"What lager do you have?" said the stranger in town, who was obviously having difficulty with the array of handpulls on the bar. I know I shouldn't really butt into the job when there are perfectly good bar staff there to help, but I'd prefer he chose a "craft" lager, rather than some macro-brewed tasteless beer made by some huge multi-national corporation who use sexist TV adverts in prime time screening.
"There is Hawkshead Lager" I ventured. Well, Hardknott don't really do a lager, and even our closest options of Lux Borealis or Duality had given way to Azimuth on the bar on this occasion, which I had already been tucking into, and was probably helping the fluidity of my verbal communications at the expense of tact.
"It's not a cloudy wheat beer is it?" I can't help myself in these situations "do you drink with your eyes?" I asked without thinking, and with far more sarcasm than the poor gentleman deserved.
I did proceed to explain that it was a very good lager and that it was indeed quite bright and on good form.
I am quite sure that any hazy beer to this gent would have been classed as one of those trendy types of Craft Beer. Assuming of course that he had heard of the concept of craft beer. I'm sure to him craft are the slightly wonky hand thrown vases seen at car boot sales punted by people who have a notion that they might one day make a living at their own passion. Or perhaps to him the artisanal rag woven bed-spreads that no-one really likes to buy, but have been painstakingly made, by hand, for some very worthy local charity.
He very probably prefers the security of consistency gained from mass produced branded products and hazy beer is just a sign of poorly made beer, he is sure of that. He is absolutely certain that anything at all that comes from a handpull is in the same hand-crafted zone.
This story, which is loosely based on a true event that happened recently, was brought to my mind after the various discussions surrounding a recent definition of Craft Beer. A significant point of contention is the refusal to exclude Blue Moon from the category despite being made and marketed by a major multinational. I'll admit, I'm split on the issue myself.
On the one hand it could very easily be seen as a cynical attempt to try and reverse the falling sales of the nasty chemical beer producers. Having seen micro-brewed beer and Craft Beer erode volume they see the need to make something that might appeal. In itself it is reported to be a highly processed beer transported at high gravity and diluted and treated for consistency with tetra hop and goodness knows what else.
But, equally, it is different. Both flavour and presentation is very different to the standard, pale, highly filtered, clean flavoured, and quite frankly boring lagers that are sold by the same large producer. The banana and clove flavours, the hazy presentation, the theatre of serve created by the addition of a slice of citrus fruit all add to a beer experience that is designed to appeal to a more adventurous drinker. Our man in the story is put off by all this.
Of course I don't want Blue Moon included in the Craft Beer category. None-the-less, many people do not trust small brands, very often this manifests itself at a very simple level of distrust of anything that is from a handpull and much more trust put in things from keg fonts. "I don't like bitters" a simple and common reaction to being offered cask beer. In some respects this can be partly due to the inevitable variability of artisanal producers. This is to some extent where the unfortunate but arguably unavoidable additions large brewers use to gain that consistency could be beneficial. Yes, it goes against the concept of craft, but gaining trust of the wider consumer base is where Craft Beer can fail.
From that point of view a beer like Blue Moon, if we can bring ourselves to welcome it, and I admit the difficulty in doing so, may help consumers who thus far only trust lager to venture a little into the Craft Beer world. Is this a bad thing?
If we can accept the above then we simply have to assess the beer for it's attributes. We must consider a beer drinker who does not have some sort of pre-conceived political motive that sways their judgement simply based on the nature of the business that is responsible for the product.
Going back to the basics of our reference definition, we ask.
Does the beer differ significantly from the styles available to mainstream consumers in the last 10 years? - YES
Is the brewer generally attempting to challenge/create something interesting/resurrect a style? - ABSOLUTELY
If a brand is British/American is the branding modern, is it inclusive? - Oh, VERY MUCH SO. No macho branding, but equally not patronising to any sex or gender.
Has the brand been historically widely available in GB? - NO, and here I assume that a no is a positive answer,
If we simplify this we end up asking if the beer in question is bringing something new and positive to the beer scene. Something that might change perceptions and broaden appreciation of beer.
I believe Blue Moon does do this whilst it is still new and fresh to the broader consumer. Of course, like many things that are new, it will one day be old. It might gain big market saturation. But then, many brands that we now might consider craft will in turn suffer this once they gain widespread acceptance.
This last point is important. The criteria create a sector which by definition must remain dynamic. Reinvention and a need to innovate and react is essential. A point that is not made explicit, but is inextricably implicit.
Even so, I still think you can still say "Blue f*****g Moon is NOT Craft Beer" if it makes you feel happy. Indeed, you'll make me feel happy if you do.
Next up, why I think the term Craft Beer is important.
Friday, 23 August 2013
Wednesday, 21 August 2013
A Commercial Craft Beer Definition.
The definition of Craft Beer in the UK is a hotly debated topic. Many think, including me, that it is difficult to define and it might well be better if we don't try. However, from a commercial point of view there is a need to have a go at broadly identifying it as a market sector.
Robert Plant, I always thought, was a member of the band Led Zeplin. I recently met a Robert Plant, who gave a splendid talk about the state of beer sales in the on-trade. It turned out it was not the man who wrote "Stairway to Heaven" addressing the seminar, but a "senior account manager" at CGA Strategy, who are rather good at collating market data about the drinks industry. I like them, quite a lot.
Despite his lack of rock fame, Rob did give an entertaining talk on beer and how it was doing in the on-trade. There was a simple distillation1 given of the various sectors of beer including regional cask beer, macro-brewed keg and micro-brewed cask. There was also some interesting facts on performance of various types of licensed outlets. Needless to say the wet only pub wasn't looking like a great business in general.
It seems outlets that "premiumise" are likely to do well. Outlets that provide some form of food offering, Cafe bars and branded food pubs it seems. None of this is particularly good news for the traditional pub lover, but they seem to be getting less in numbers anyhow.
But, the big question I had on my mind was "how does this fit with the Craft Beer sector?" - so I asked it. Of course I expected a reply along the lines of "well, we would first have to define craft beer" - which was indeed the reply given. However, this didn't stop a discussion ensuing on the subject and a suggestion that perhaps knowing a bit more might be nice.
I'd like to think it was my awkward question that galvanised Rob into finding an answer for me. However, I suspect I'm not that important to CGA and they probably have quite a few big customers asking them the same question. You see, we're not even a customer of CGA.
It seems they have some answers. They have been through 1000s of beer brands and chosen some to class as Craft Beer.I have no idea if Hardknott has been lumped into it or not. I am pleased to be able to update this post and confirm that Hardknott does fit their criteria.
The basic facts appeared on twitter a few days ago. I missed some of it, but that's OK because the boys copied it on their blog. Nice chaps. Read about it on the post entitled Craft Beer Quantified
Now, the comments did raise a few eyebrows. "How did you define Craft Beer then?" It's obvious that to collate statistics about a market you have to define it first.
Anyhow, they have sort of defined it, and tell us how on another blog post called Craft Beer Quantified - How did we create the category? Apparently it's annoyed a few folk. Personally I think it's a great attempt. What does the reader think?
In any case it's appropriate that a guy named Robert Plant is looking at how the Craft Beer scene rocks.
----------------
1 I'm not sure a simple distillation of any sort of malted beverage is a good idea, really.
Robert Plant, I always thought, was a member of the band Led Zeplin. I recently met a Robert Plant, who gave a splendid talk about the state of beer sales in the on-trade. It turned out it was not the man who wrote "Stairway to Heaven" addressing the seminar, but a "senior account manager" at CGA Strategy, who are rather good at collating market data about the drinks industry. I like them, quite a lot.
Despite his lack of rock fame, Rob did give an entertaining talk on beer and how it was doing in the on-trade. There was a simple distillation1 given of the various sectors of beer including regional cask beer, macro-brewed keg and micro-brewed cask. There was also some interesting facts on performance of various types of licensed outlets. Needless to say the wet only pub wasn't looking like a great business in general.
It seems outlets that "premiumise" are likely to do well. Outlets that provide some form of food offering, Cafe bars and branded food pubs it seems. None of this is particularly good news for the traditional pub lover, but they seem to be getting less in numbers anyhow.
But, the big question I had on my mind was "how does this fit with the Craft Beer sector?" - so I asked it. Of course I expected a reply along the lines of "well, we would first have to define craft beer" - which was indeed the reply given. However, this didn't stop a discussion ensuing on the subject and a suggestion that perhaps knowing a bit more might be nice.
I'd like to think it was my awkward question that galvanised Rob into finding an answer for me. However, I suspect I'm not that important to CGA and they probably have quite a few big customers asking them the same question. You see, we're not even a customer of CGA.
It seems they have some answers. They have been through 1000s of beer brands and chosen some to class as Craft Beer.
The basic facts appeared on twitter a few days ago. I missed some of it, but that's OK because the boys copied it on their blog. Nice chaps. Read about it on the post entitled Craft Beer Quantified
Now, the comments did raise a few eyebrows. "How did you define Craft Beer then?" It's obvious that to collate statistics about a market you have to define it first.
Anyhow, they have sort of defined it, and tell us how on another blog post called Craft Beer Quantified - How did we create the category? Apparently it's annoyed a few folk. Personally I think it's a great attempt. What does the reader think?
In any case it's appropriate that a guy named Robert Plant is looking at how the Craft Beer scene rocks.
----------------
1 I'm not sure a simple distillation of any sort of malted beverage is a good idea, really.
Sunday, 18 August 2013
Craft Beer Festivals
A look at the new wave of beer festivals I've enjoyed this year.
Craft Beer Festivals from Hardknott Brewery on Vimeo.
Craft Beer Festivals from Hardknott Brewery on Vimeo.
Monday, 5 August 2013
Brewery automation
The reader may know that I used to work in the Nuclear Industry. I spent 20 odd1 years doing various roles. The experience and knowledge I gained has proven to be invaluable when building our brewery.
Beer enthusiasts sometimes seem a little baffled as to why brewers like myself want to grow their business. There are very many good reasons. One reason for me is that after a while it becomes tiresome to have to do repetitive and tedious jobs. Many of these jobs I know with the knowledge and experience I have, could be automated. Investment in the technology is expensive and can only be economically viable as the business becomes bigger.
Kegwash 1 from Hardknott Brewery on Vimeo.
A task that many micro-brewers have found themselves faced with is the challenge of keg washing. Some brewers remove the spear, turn the keg upside down and put it on their cask washer. A satisfactory solution, but not ideal, if for no other reason than if the keg isn't fully de-presurised first the projectile spear can lead to fatal consequences. I figure it's not called a spear for nothing.
I liked the idea of a fully automated keg wash system. One that blew out the ullage, pre-rinsed, washed with detergent, rinsed again and finished with a terminal rinse of peracetic blown out with a purge of CO2. However, off the peg systems start in the region of £10k.
MKI Hardknott keg wash used manual valves, and a single pump. It took a lot of concentration to operate else the wrong liquid would be sent the wrong direction at the wrong time.
Well, I am after all a control engineer2, so it seems to me to be daft not to combine my knowledge of instrumentation and control engineering with what I know my brewery needs.
So, I've just got MKII KegWash working.
I know it ain't pretty. Jules says if we paint it mat black it'd resemble something out of Mad Max. I prefer to think along the lines of Scrapheap Challenge. Much of it was built out of junk we had lying around. Yes, the electrical control circuits need to be packaged in an IP rated box. But it does work. You put the keg on, push the start switch and it does the rest. I'm pleased with it as a proof of principle prototype. MKIII will properly look the part, honest.
-----------------
1By "odd" I mean; not exactly, but a little over, rather than strange. Although it has to be said, it was strange, from time to time.
2A control engineer is completely different to a control freak, although my staff team probably disagree.
Beer enthusiasts sometimes seem a little baffled as to why brewers like myself want to grow their business. There are very many good reasons. One reason for me is that after a while it becomes tiresome to have to do repetitive and tedious jobs. Many of these jobs I know with the knowledge and experience I have, could be automated. Investment in the technology is expensive and can only be economically viable as the business becomes bigger.
Kegwash 1 from Hardknott Brewery on Vimeo.
A task that many micro-brewers have found themselves faced with is the challenge of keg washing. Some brewers remove the spear, turn the keg upside down and put it on their cask washer. A satisfactory solution, but not ideal, if for no other reason than if the keg isn't fully de-presurised first the projectile spear can lead to fatal consequences. I figure it's not called a spear for nothing.
I liked the idea of a fully automated keg wash system. One that blew out the ullage, pre-rinsed, washed with detergent, rinsed again and finished with a terminal rinse of peracetic blown out with a purge of CO2. However, off the peg systems start in the region of £10k.
MKI Hardknott keg wash used manual valves, and a single pump. It took a lot of concentration to operate else the wrong liquid would be sent the wrong direction at the wrong time.
Well, I am after all a control engineer2, so it seems to me to be daft not to combine my knowledge of instrumentation and control engineering with what I know my brewery needs.
So, I've just got MKII KegWash working.
I know it ain't pretty. Jules says if we paint it mat black it'd resemble something out of Mad Max. I prefer to think along the lines of Scrapheap Challenge. Much of it was built out of junk we had lying around. Yes, the electrical control circuits need to be packaged in an IP rated box. But it does work. You put the keg on, push the start switch and it does the rest. I'm pleased with it as a proof of principle prototype. MKIII will properly look the part, honest.
-----------------
1By "odd" I mean; not exactly, but a little over, rather than strange. Although it has to be said, it was strange, from time to time.
2A control engineer is completely different to a control freak, although my staff team probably disagree.
Sunday, 28 July 2013
Are there too many breweries?
From a beer drinkers point of view there has almost never been a better time. I don't know the exact number of breweries in the country, but I am lead to believe it is well over 1000. There are literally tens of thousands of beers to choose from. Imported beers are also becoming much more available. This is great, and as a beer drinker I love it.
As a brewer though it worries me. I know it also worries other brewers. The total volume of beer being consumed in the country has been declining for some time. Despite this there has been a steady increase in the capacity of micro-brewing. Yes, this is partly driven by an ever increasing demand from drinkers, which in turn, it could be argued, has been inspired by the increasing choice that has occurred.
Locally to me there continues to be a disturbing increase in the number of breweries. I'm not even going to quote a number, as to be honest, I'm not sure it is possible to count.
Here you see I'm starting to be negative, having started this post on a fairly positive slant. I find it disturbing because I do not believe it is commercially sustainable. Really, I simply don't believe it is.
Locally to us here, not Cumbria in fact, but Lancashire, a brewery had been flooding the market with cask beer at below a sustainable price. They were part of a bigger wholesaling company, who in turn was competing at below a sustainable price point. They supplied into Cumbria and made it difficult to compete at a price we were comfortable with, a price that would maintain our margins and enable us to keep up our VAT, duty, staff wages and paying suppliers. The business went into administration owing VAT, duty and several brewers. Not us thankfully, I could see which way they were heading.
What really saddens me is that this business seems to have gone through pre-pack administration and are back up and trading again. Quite legal and above board, at least to the letter of the law. Personally, I think it's a bit out of order. All the depts wiped out.
Now, I'm all in favour of a free market. Every brewer has to make their own choice about where they want to sit in terms of price versus quality. So on the surface you could quite rightly accuse me of being scared of a little competition. And yes, perhaps I am. Because we're working harder than ever, growing the business and investing like mad to make it work, to make sure we are strong enough into the future to survive and be viable, rather than ending up bankrupt.
Many of the brewers who sell beer at below sustainable prices are able to do so because of the progressive beer duty scheme. The scheme is in place to allow small businesses to start up, invest, and become sustainable; to get over the problems of being small.
What in actual fact is happening is that there are a number of breweries, not all I hasten to add, but enough who are dropping prices so low as to drive down the value of beer to the point where by it is not sustainable. Ultimately, the lowest wholesale price of beer has barely risen in 10 years, this is despite significant increases in the costs of brewing.
Now, as I said above, I'm talking about a few breweries, coming in new to the industry and probably not properly costing out their business. Equally, it also bothers me that many don't really seem to know what they are going to do different that will make them stand out amongst all the other small cuddly breweries. I feel the time has long gone where a brewery can survive just because they are a small, local, traditional cask brewery.
There are plenty more who are doing a splendid job, making great beer and selling it at much closer to what I would consider a sustainable price point. Many who are doing something different, have a firm and robust business plan, know what they want to do that is unique and put effort into image and their story.
Even so, I personally feel that there is a danger that the micro-brewery bubble will burst. I even think there is evidence that this could happen soon. Of course, the same could be said about "craft beer" and we need to all watch out for that.
I am often asked for advice from people who want to start a micro-brewery. I always start by saying that they shouldn't, and point out all the long list of pitfalls. If their enthusiasm can get past my discouragement then perhaps they stand a chance.
It seems clear to me that the increase of micro-breweries cannot continue indefinitely. Something will have to give, sometime, and at some point. There simply has to be some casualties, and we can't just blame the beer tie for all of it.
Anyway, all of this came to a head when we were sorting out communicating to the press our recent bronze medals from our little trip to Dublin. As is my MO, I added a little bit to the story. I'm still unsure if I did the right thing, or if the tone of our press release was right. It did however get into the press and get us noticed, good enough perhaps.
I guess some people will be upset at what I'm saying. Some people might disagree with my thoughts that we're at, or near to brewery saturation. But I do firmly believe that the beer world needs better beer, not just more of the same. We are working hard to improve what we do, and will continue to do so.
What does the reader think? Go on, tell me. My views here are, to some extent, opinion, and you are welcome to disagree.
As a brewer though it worries me. I know it also worries other brewers. The total volume of beer being consumed in the country has been declining for some time. Despite this there has been a steady increase in the capacity of micro-brewing. Yes, this is partly driven by an ever increasing demand from drinkers, which in turn, it could be argued, has been inspired by the increasing choice that has occurred.
Locally to me there continues to be a disturbing increase in the number of breweries. I'm not even going to quote a number, as to be honest, I'm not sure it is possible to count.
Here you see I'm starting to be negative, having started this post on a fairly positive slant. I find it disturbing because I do not believe it is commercially sustainable. Really, I simply don't believe it is.
Locally to us here, not Cumbria in fact, but Lancashire, a brewery had been flooding the market with cask beer at below a sustainable price. They were part of a bigger wholesaling company, who in turn was competing at below a sustainable price point. They supplied into Cumbria and made it difficult to compete at a price we were comfortable with, a price that would maintain our margins and enable us to keep up our VAT, duty, staff wages and paying suppliers. The business went into administration owing VAT, duty and several brewers. Not us thankfully, I could see which way they were heading.
What really saddens me is that this business seems to have gone through pre-pack administration and are back up and trading again. Quite legal and above board, at least to the letter of the law. Personally, I think it's a bit out of order. All the depts wiped out.
Now, I'm all in favour of a free market. Every brewer has to make their own choice about where they want to sit in terms of price versus quality. So on the surface you could quite rightly accuse me of being scared of a little competition. And yes, perhaps I am. Because we're working harder than ever, growing the business and investing like mad to make it work, to make sure we are strong enough into the future to survive and be viable, rather than ending up bankrupt.
Many of the brewers who sell beer at below sustainable prices are able to do so because of the progressive beer duty scheme. The scheme is in place to allow small businesses to start up, invest, and become sustainable; to get over the problems of being small.
What in actual fact is happening is that there are a number of breweries, not all I hasten to add, but enough who are dropping prices so low as to drive down the value of beer to the point where by it is not sustainable. Ultimately, the lowest wholesale price of beer has barely risen in 10 years, this is despite significant increases in the costs of brewing.
Now, as I said above, I'm talking about a few breweries, coming in new to the industry and probably not properly costing out their business. Equally, it also bothers me that many don't really seem to know what they are going to do different that will make them stand out amongst all the other small cuddly breweries. I feel the time has long gone where a brewery can survive just because they are a small, local, traditional cask brewery.
There are plenty more who are doing a splendid job, making great beer and selling it at much closer to what I would consider a sustainable price point. Many who are doing something different, have a firm and robust business plan, know what they want to do that is unique and put effort into image and their story.
Even so, I personally feel that there is a danger that the micro-brewery bubble will burst. I even think there is evidence that this could happen soon. Of course, the same could be said about "craft beer" and we need to all watch out for that.
I am often asked for advice from people who want to start a micro-brewery. I always start by saying that they shouldn't, and point out all the long list of pitfalls. If their enthusiasm can get past my discouragement then perhaps they stand a chance.
It seems clear to me that the increase of micro-breweries cannot continue indefinitely. Something will have to give, sometime, and at some point. There simply has to be some casualties, and we can't just blame the beer tie for all of it.
Anyway, all of this came to a head when we were sorting out communicating to the press our recent bronze medals from our little trip to Dublin. As is my MO, I added a little bit to the story. I'm still unsure if I did the right thing, or if the tone of our press release was right. It did however get into the press and get us noticed, good enough perhaps.
I guess some people will be upset at what I'm saying. Some people might disagree with my thoughts that we're at, or near to brewery saturation. But I do firmly believe that the beer world needs better beer, not just more of the same. We are working hard to improve what we do, and will continue to do so.
What does the reader think? Go on, tell me. My views here are, to some extent, opinion, and you are welcome to disagree.
Sunday, 21 July 2013
Alltech CBDC - Dublin, part2 - and a win
We've just arrived back in Cumbria, after a busy couple of days in Dublin, having great fun, learning stuff about beer, and Bourbon, and Whisky and other wonderful malt based beverages and of course, best of all, catching up with beery folk. It was good to have a few beers with The Beer Nut and Tale of Ale as well as many other good people. New friends were made and a few mutually beneficial ideas floated.
I think it's an event to watch out for. It's similar, in a way, to the SIBA BeerX which occurred for the first time this year. However, from a brewing point of view it was broader and more comprehensive in the technical content of the seminars. With there being an international element to the conference it is much more useful to businesses like ours who want to expand international horizons. If I had to choose between BeerX and this I'd have a difficult decision to make I feel.
I want to say a whole load more about the First Alltech Craft Brewing and Distilling Conference. But, suffice to say that we really enjoyed it a lot. It was fun, hard-work, tiring, educational, commercially stimulating and friendly all rolled into one.
I think it's an event to watch out for. It's similar, in a way, to the SIBA BeerX which occurred for the first time this year. However, from a brewing point of view it was broader and more comprehensive in the technical content of the seminars. With there being an international element to the conference it is much more useful to businesses like ours who want to expand international horizons. If I had to choose between BeerX and this I'd have a difficult decision to make I feel.
Having said that, sometimes the Americanisation was a downside. I mean, one speaker actually joked about S.I. units as if they were something to be ridiculed. I know, we are all a little protective of the pint, but for goodness sake, those guys can't even get that right. No, seriously, if you are going to give a technical seminar in Europe please have the decency to convert inches into millimetres, fahrenheit into centigrade and remember that although the UK breweries do still understand barrels as a unit of volume, you still didn't get that right either. Personally I think it would be better if we all used hectolitres when describing brewery size, that way there can be no confusion.
Anyhow, we entered some beers into the Dub Cup, as it seems to have been christened. It turns out that Azimuth and Continuum were good enough to gain bronze, which is quite good considering the other world class beers that were there. The full results can be seen here, we certainly sit alongside a few other notary UK breweries as well as our Stateside and Irish counterparts.
Saturday, 20 July 2013
Alltech CBDC - Dublin, part 1
The venue is the rather impressive Convention Centre Dublin on the banks of the River Liffey. Last night we were given a red VIP wrist band and told we could go to the VIP reception on the 5th floor. 5 escalators later we found ourselves looking out across the river and the Dublin skyline, drinking Kentucky Bourbon Ale and networking with various beery type folk.
Later we were shown into the auditorium to listen to the live recording of a couple of Woodsong's radio shows. The first show was all Bluegrass, which to be honest isn't my thing, but the second show featured a couple of Irish singers, who I did enjoy.
An interesting start to a convention about beer. A live concert, or if you listen to the presenter, a musical conversation. Apparently there was around 2000 people in the concert. To the reader I'd have thought it might seem strange, and yet there are many reasons why this is far less strange than might be thought. For a start, whether you and like Bluegrass, it is indigenous in Kentucky. The argument goes that traditional Irish music and Bluegrass are linked. Traditional music, and it might not be everyone's cup off tea, but it's about people, and people having fun at that. Which is where beer comes in, because the best beer is about people.
Since arriving here I have met so many beery friends, both old and new. Events like this are partly about meeting people, networking, discussing and making things happen. And a key thing that I'm sure is important about craft beer is that it consists of clear co-operation, collaboration and friendship, even between potentially competing buisinesses.
So, the first Alltech International Brewing and Distilling Conference not only has a fantastic beer networking potential, but also brings a series of fantastic technical seminars. Together it packs a great deal into two days, so much so that I'm having a struggle to fit everything in, and already it has taken me more than 24 hours to write this post.
A bold move by Alltech to bring this conference to Dublin. They have invested a huge amount into this and clearly have underwritten this first event. I hope it gains enough momentum, although there were a total of 830 people attending the seminars on the first day, so clearly there is enough interest already.
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