tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post7393626598998647270..comments2024-03-09T04:57:25.956+00:00Comments on HardKnott Dave's blog about stuff: A Beer For That - a brewer's viewAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-4041616546805365132014-11-12T12:05:50.784+00:002014-11-12T12:05:50.784+00:00Rob, I meet people from all levels in the brewing ...Rob, I meet people from all levels in the brewing industry. Writers, brewers, brewery owners, leaders of the Let There Be Beer Campaign and even occasionally the CEOs from these large multinational conglomerates. They know me by name more than I know them by name. This is not bullshit, but just the truth.<br /><br />The conversations are helpful to me. Sometimes I am taken into their trust and in return I get truly helpful market insights. Sometimes I get fead full of bullshit. However, to a man these people do not, I believe, take me for an idiot, and I retain a level of respect and professionalism with them.<br /><br />It is possible what I have already said here undermines a trust that I think I have gained with some people.<br /><br />To name anyone or to quote what they have said would be a breaking of confidence I am not comfortable with, and may limit the usefulness of future conversations.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-25616899644621582372014-11-12T11:11:04.366+00:002014-11-12T11:11:04.366+00:00Dave, why don't you name names? Or actually de...Dave, why don't you name names? Or actually describe what was said to you? At the moment it is all very vague.Robnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-79907905155762138992014-11-11T16:48:08.661+00:002014-11-11T16:48:08.661+00:00I doubt it'll make any positive contribution a...I doubt it'll make any positive contribution at all, to be honest. And as I've said, likely a negative one to you and me.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-55403659947670083922014-11-11T16:07:45.137+00:002014-11-11T16:07:45.137+00:00No Dave, of course I'm not calling you a liar....No Dave, of course I'm not calling you a liar. I'm sorry if you though I was. And I apologise for giving you that impression.<br /><br />I'm just doing the Internet "Pics or It Didn’t Happen" thing. Name names. It would make a much better story. <br /><br />The motive behind this campaign has to be to sell more beer. Things being what they are, the huge majority of that extra beer will be that sold by big brewers. A tiny teensy bit might be yours (or mine). I don't believe it stops us selling our delicious beer in the way we want to.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-75932707395468775082014-11-11T15:09:40.744+00:002014-11-11T15:09:40.744+00:00Stringers, I do hope you are not calling me a lier...Stringers, I do hope you are not calling me a lier?<br /><br />I tell it the way I see it. And yes, the part of the motive behind the original "LEt There Be Beer" campaign was very transparent; make all beer appear to be the same and stop these little upstarts from pointing out that actually, big brand beer is rubbish.<br /><br />This new campaign is a little more cleverly camouflaged, but the motives behind it haven't changed.<br /><br />And yes, big people have talked to me about what I should and should not say, so don't go calling me a lier.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-92232790947422456112014-11-11T14:49:02.135+00:002014-11-11T14:49:02.135+00:00My motive? You set off my BS detector is what ;-) ...My motive? You set off my BS detector is what ;-) And the persecutory delusion alarm: "people are all the trying to dissuade me from shouting about my business" - You shout away. But I thought it was the making of beer that you did best. (better than them, anyway).StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-74202963004349204472014-11-11T09:17:33.915+00:002014-11-11T09:17:33.915+00:00Stringers, yes, people are all the trying to dissu...Stringers, yes, people are all the trying to dissuade me from shouting about my business.<br /><br />People who are heading up multinational corporations are clever people. The way they frame their arguments are meant to sound like they are doing me a favour. They are not.<br /><br />Moreover, what is your motive for commenting here Stringers? It seems to be to dissuade me from doing what I do best.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-70594126540162048442014-11-11T08:54:31.549+00:002014-11-11T08:54:31.549+00:00Seriously Dave? Someone actually "asked [you]...Seriously Dave? Someone actually "asked [you] to endorse it" on condition that you didn't "shout about" your own business? StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-83846778902643381952014-11-11T08:32:38.846+00:002014-11-11T08:32:38.846+00:00Tandy, yes, there is a sinister undertone to the e...Tandy, yes, there is a sinister undertone to the ethos that is trying to deter us micro-breweries from shouting out their USP (unique selling point) - that we are different to big brand producers. This is what makes us good. This is what we do best, is to be different from mass produced beer. We mustn't be afraid to say that we are different. But they want us to stop saying that we are different.<br /><br />"It's Just Beer"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-10885092093354529802014-11-11T08:27:07.311+00:002014-11-11T08:27:07.311+00:00Fair points Dave. In some ways. Still boils down t...Fair points Dave. In some ways. Still boils down to getting people to drink beer. You can't get aspiration into beer without that.<br /><br />Are you really saying though that the ethos of this campaign is that during it no-one should promote their own business?Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-64983564325527744042014-11-11T08:09:56.485+00:002014-11-11T08:09:56.485+00:00Ed,
I understand your point, but I think you miss...Ed,<br /><br />I understand your point, but I think you miss mine. Whisky is seen as aspirational. Besides, there is the point that there is a growing interest in overturning the fact you point out within the whisky enthusiasts arena. Bladnoch, for instance, has been bought back and brought into action by private enterprise, despite barriers put in the way by big industry.<br /><br />I'm not just a brewer. I've spent more time in business as a publican. As a publican I am less interested in selling people beer and more interested in selling them an experience, a concept, something that has much more value than just the liquid in the glass. Indeed, Hardknott is much more than just the beer. We are a concept, a dream and an ethos.<br /><br />As a publican I stock quality products with the aim of providing an experience that appeals to an aspirational customer. The choice of wines and spirits is key to tha, as well as the beer. And yes, I do consider the business ethos behind each and every product. The choice isn't always made easy because the products I'd like to stock can sometimes suffer from diverse routes to market. This troubles us too, because wholesalers are looking for limited ranges of products they can sell in volume, hence seeing the ubiquitous brands. The big boys push us out in many different and diverse ways.<br /><br />Be it food, drink or music, I am in the market of providing something very different to the run-of-the-mill experience. In so doing I'd like to try and buck trends. This puts me at logger heads with concepts like "There's a beer for that" because of its desire to generate ultimately an homogenous and "harmonious" beer market. i.e. flat and boring.<br /><br />The conflict that occurs in the beer industry are good, and I've recently made the choice to go ahead and create much more conflict, as I think this is what is required, not a sit back and go "hey, isn't beer lovely, we should love it all"<br /><br />Whisky is good, even though a large number of distilleries are owned by bigger companies, and don't get me started on Diagio, there is a much greater diversity by the fact that the sills are often small, and whisky has to be kept in oak for at least 3 years to be called whisky. This inherently adds a value, whether you think that value is worth it or not, and that value creates aspiration that the beer industry has repeatedly and consistently refused to permit.<br /><br />I am one of a few people who wants to add aspiration to beer.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-54400777765591080952014-11-10T22:07:25.496+00:002014-11-10T22:07:25.496+00:00Dave, 'good whisky' is mainly produced by ...Dave, 'good whisky' is mainly produced by 'soulless multi-nationals'.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844169940650659196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-88341264306775575072014-11-10T21:15:44.501+00:002014-11-10T21:15:44.501+00:00You're "told behind the scenes"!? Wh...You're "told behind the scenes"!? Who's doing that and why do would you care? And is someone dares try that sort of shit on, why don't you call them publicly on it?robnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-81318292977024304362014-11-10T20:56:10.039+00:002014-11-10T20:56:10.039+00:00Great post Dave, it's great to see someone fro...Great post Dave, it's great to see someone from within the industry reiterating my own feelings about this campaign.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12362693914759656245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-44449014496171694272014-11-10T20:43:58.040+00:002014-11-10T20:43:58.040+00:00Rob,
The advert itself is not the thing that both...Rob,<br /><br />The advert itself is not the thing that bothers me. I quite happy that they do whatever they want in terms of advertising. What bothers me is the fact that I am asked to endorse it. To help out even. I'm not going to do that.<br /><br />I stake my business, my lively hood and even the value of my house on being different to all of that. It strikes me that my unique selling point is that we do something very different to the big mass producers. What irks me is the fact that I'm told behind the scenes that I mustn't shout about the things that make my brewery, my beers, my staff, and our ethos different.<br /><br />They want to draw me into their homogenous nonsense. I don't want to be the same. I want to be different. I want to stand up for truly great beer and not have someone else's idea of what beer should be stamped all over all the hard work we've put in.<br /><br />Stringers, you might have to elaborate on your meaning there with the mention of Pilsner Urquell.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-72793499815599316752014-11-10T18:50:27.236+00:002014-11-10T18:50:27.236+00:00Every time someone says "Blue Moon" ther...Every time someone says "Blue Moon" there's a little voice whispers "Pilsner Urquell".StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-79007485432043356852014-11-10T17:56:52.987+00:002014-11-10T17:56:52.987+00:00Doh, too many negatives, should read:
" I do...Doh, too many negatives, should read:<br /><br />" I don't drink AbInbev stuff not because I don't trust their motives, but because it doesn't taste nice."Robnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-45545813381303666252014-11-10T17:55:45.156+00:002014-11-10T17:55:45.156+00:00Sorry Dave, I still don't get it. I understand...Sorry Dave, I still don't get it. I understand you want to question their motives, but I just don't see what the trojan horse is in this campaign. I don't drink AbInbev stuff because I don't trust their motives, but because it doesn't taste nice. If they did make stuff that tasted nice then I would drink some of it.<br /><br />I can understand you getting worried by multinationals getting more into the craft sector. I'm sure there will be buy outs, and more 'crafty' beers released. But what has that got to do with this advert?Robnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-19469468606347140222014-11-10T17:43:21.479+00:002014-11-10T17:43:21.479+00:00Stringers, I think my position has changed a littl...Stringers, I think my position has changed a little from a couple of years ago. I've rubbed shoulders with brewery type people big and small from all over the world. Some of it has been useful, some of it not. Some, I believe, has been positively damaging. Of course, I'll always keep assessing that position, but that is the way I feel at the current time.<br /><br />Phil, if we want to look at the big picture, why just focus on beer? I thought the whole point of the campaign was to try to temp people away from wine and spirits. Personally, if people don't want to drink good small batch produced beer then I'd be happier if they went off and drank good whisky or whine than something made by soulless multi-nationals.<br /><br />If we want a campaign that tackles the neo-prohibitionists as a united alcohol industry then perhaps I'd think about it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-4174287569687820982014-11-10T17:31:38.774+00:002014-11-10T17:31:38.774+00:001992 is precisely the year that the polys turned i...1992 is precisely the year that the polys turned into universities - I work at an ex-poly, more politely known as a 'post-92 institution'. There's certainly been expansion in student numbers since (say) 1993, but whether it amounts to doubling is another question. (Or rather, there certainly <b>was</b> expansion in numbers - the trend's in reverse now.)<br /><br />Nitpicks aside, I think you may or may not be missing the bigger picture (I'll explain what I mean by that). The bigger context of this campaign is the denormalisation of beer as an ordinary, everyday drink - a default drink, something you just have because you fancy something to drink. And the context for <b>that</b> is the bigger denormalisation of alcoholic drinks in general - one sign of which is the storm the original LTTB campaign ran into for daring to suggest that drinking beer was fun. I think that progressive denormalisation has far more to do with the decline in beer sales than some kind of consumer rebellion against boring, identikit beer (as welcome as that would be). It's a threat to beer in general, and a campaign for beer in general is a big part of what's needed to push back against it.<br /><br />It may be that you (collectively!) agree with all of this and welcome the decline of Big Beer - the craft sector will certainly decline more slowly, and will probably carry on growing for a while. But I think a "big fish in a small pond" strategy would be very short-sighted. The neo-prohibitionists haven't only got the big breweries in their sights (BD's clashes with Portman weren't all manufactured) - they'll get round to you in their own good time. "First they came for the Carling drinkers..."Philhttp://ohgoodale.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-77343357720666885112014-11-10T16:01:05.039+00:002014-11-10T16:01:05.039+00:00Dave, my brewery is so small that this whole thing...Dave, my brewery is so small that this whole thing will have absolutely zero impact on me. It would be like a pigeon worrying about the impact of the rollout of fibre broadband on my message carrying business. And anyway, like <b>you</b> said when I <a href="http://stringersbeer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/asymmetric-warfare.html?showComment=1342797745239#c5356297245583014681" rel="nofollow">pondered a couple of years ago on the issue</a> of the corporates going crafty (as we say nowadays), "we should stop spending so much time worrying".StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-63091360478721453622014-11-10T15:05:31.892+00:002014-11-10T15:05:31.892+00:00You've got the first bit right, of course, we&...You've got the first bit right, of course, we'll work with what we think is best for us.<br /><br />We, like some other notable craft brewers, are looking at supermarkets. Yes, we'd like a little more volume and at the same time make our beers more available to people who want them. This is absolutely not the same thing as siding with big, massive multinational brewers. Not in the slightest.<br /><br />I often question who we should, or shouldn't collaborate with. Have they always been good for us? A debatable point on the whole.<br /><br />But Stringers, I get baffled at your approach to comments on my blog. We are not that much different to you. Yes, we have slightly more staff than you, but we are far too little at the moment to make a real sustainable future.<br /><br />We're just trying to do the same as you should be doing; fighting our corner. I'm not sure how questioning my policy is helping you to do the same. If you can't see the harm that this campaign might also cause Stringers then I'd suggest you look a bit more closely.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-19920139193483683942014-11-10T14:47:42.041+00:002014-11-10T14:47:42.041+00:00Sorry Dave, but you seem to want it both ways: You...Sorry Dave, but you seem to want it both ways: You'll work with anyone (it seems) if you think it helps you (and why not?), but you want to be on some big brewer bashing bandwaggon at the same time. Dissing the big boys for "volume" & "supermarkets" when a little more than a week ago you were sharing your plans, here, for Hardknott's move into the same thing.<br /><br />Me, I've got nothing against the campaign. It seems to be saying that beer's broadly a good thing. I can't not agree with that.<br />StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-35911700244672671392014-11-10T14:03:04.548+00:002014-11-10T14:03:04.548+00:00Rob,
The harm is that it risks pushing us back ou...Rob,<br /><br />The harm is that it risks pushing us back out of the market. The campaign is designed to try and gain the trust of various groups of beer drinkers, including enthusiasts. It seems to be working.<br /><br />A Trojan Horse. Once they have your trust, my trust, and the trust of other people, just wait, there will be more brands like Blue Moon. More takeovers like Sharps and Goose Island. There will be takeovers and then closures as a rationalisation of the industry is embarked upon. Before long we'll be back to having a choice of only 6. A dilution of independence.<br /><br />Do you really trust them? I don't.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-78891342610654138192014-11-10T13:54:44.440+00:002014-11-10T13:54:44.440+00:00I wouldn't expect you to support it but what h...I wouldn't expect you to support it but what harm do you think this campaign will do you?Robnoreply@blogger.com