tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post4000343334649432407..comments2024-03-09T04:57:25.956+00:00Comments on HardKnott Dave's blog about stuff: The Humanity of Craft BeerAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-17025063510389817212012-08-06T13:26:38.718+01:002012-08-06T13:26:38.718+01:00Article is giving really productive information to...Article is giving really productive information to everyone. Well done!!<br /><br /><a href="http://accountants.inbasingstoke.com/" rel="nofollow">Accountants in Basingstoke</a>Masterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04466033538494914642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-27142095178370954142012-06-18T10:27:31.431+01:002012-06-18T10:27:31.431+01:00Cookie, apologies for not responding sooner, altho...Cookie, apologies for not responding sooner, although there is a part of me tempted to treat the comments you make with a little bit of contempt. After all, I am a business man first and foremost. It is of course one of my chief concerns as to where my costs go.<br /><br />I have, in fact, been working hard over the last couple of months, along with a consultant and our accountant, on a very exciting project. I learnt last Wednesday that the project has got the necessary funding and our business plan and accounts have, in order to make it work, been scrutinised by many people who supposedly know more than me.<br /><br />I could go on, but suffice to say that a small flippant comment about how we focus on brewing to an ethos, to a desired beer specification, rather than a finical specification, has been blown out of proportion.<br /><br /><br />Fullers have a brewer on their board of directors. Many bigger breweries do not. Of course, Fullers have accounts on the board too, and if Hardknott were their size I dare say we would too. But so long as I'm in charge our ethos will be driven by the idea that beer is more than just another beverage commodity whose sole purpose is to achieve dividends for shareholders.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-61713756550679462842012-06-14T16:00:49.941+01:002012-06-14T16:00:49.941+01:00Oops, no he didn't. Sorry Dave. Got that wron...Oops, no he didn't. Sorry Dave. Got that wrong. But <a href="http://hardknott.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/what-is-microbrewery.html" rel="nofollow">that</a> was an interesting piece as well.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-12820502502052314902012-06-14T15:54:48.974+01:002012-06-14T15:54:48.974+01:00OllyC, the Brewers Association (which is I suppose...OllyC, the Brewers Association (which is I suppose a similar kind of thing to SIBA, but bigger) have a widely referenced <a href="http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/business-tools/craft-brewing-statistics/craft-brewer-defined" rel="nofollow">definition of a "Craft Brewer"</a>. <br /><br />As to what brewers do - there's also <b>why</b> and <b>how</b> they do it. See <a href="http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/w/what-is-craft/" rel="nofollow">http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/w/what-is-craft/</a> for some interesting (non-beery) perspectives on "craft".<br /><br />There's a whole bunch of ways do divide the industry up by size. SIBA has bands:<br />1: Up to 999hl pa [0 - 11 brls/wk approx]<br />2: 1,000 to 4,999hl pa [12 - 59 brls/wk approx]<br />3: 5,000 to 29,999hl pa [60 - 351brls/wk approx]<br />4: 30,000 to 59,999hl pa [352 - 703 brls/wk approx]<br />5: 60,000 to 200,000hl pa [704 - 2345brls/wk approx] <br /><br />What would you call micro? Bands 1 to what? or everything the HMRC calls small brewery? (bands 1-4)<br />That's what <a href="http://hardknott.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/what-is-microbrewery.html" rel="nofollow">Dave went with way back when</a>StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-66583857204131089592012-06-14T11:46:09.864+01:002012-06-14T11:46:09.864+01:00From all of this talk about what is "craft&qu...From all of this talk about what is "craft" I can't help but turn back to the issue of accountants.<br /><br />I've drank Dave's grog a few times. I liked it. I enjoyed the bottle he sent me and I've seen it in beer geek pubs and bought it. Who wouldn't? The beer of the guy from that blog I read. I necked a few and enjoyed it.<br /><br />But as far as I can see this outfit has been going over a year. I've seen the bottles on the internet retail at prices that indicate a lot of added value is in the grog. If your not making a profit by now, isn't it time to hire a cost accountant? Not a full time employee but the services of someone that offers business consultancy?<br /><br />Isn't it time to look at process and understand where the costs are? I'm not advocating cheaper ingredients or dumbed down grog but an understanding of where the costs are falling? You might be surprised to discover where money is leaking from your outfit and might be the difference between making a quid and not.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-40161897148409191752012-06-14T11:10:25.651+01:002012-06-14T11:10:25.651+01:00Dave, that's a good point about size. Correct ...Dave, that's a good point about size. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the term 'craft brewery' has its origins in the US, where they have a set definition of what constitutes a craft brewery based on size. Who came up with this rule? The US equivalent of SIBA?<br /><br />Perhaps we could do something similar over here with the term 'microbrewery', or 'craft brewery' over here. I prefer microbrewry myself - don't want to copy the Americans too much :)<br /><br />StringersBeer - if craft is what the brewer does, then surely almost all breweries are craft by definition? Just because a big corporate brewery is pumping out millions of gallons per year, doesn't necessarily mean that the brewer isn't passionate about what he does and ticks all the craft boxes.<br /><br />Oh, I'm going up to the lakes a week on Monday, so I hope to be able to locate your beer in lots of pubs!OllyChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12269081729980022648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-83190637965827076582012-06-13T19:46:41.426+01:002012-06-13T19:46:41.426+01:00I've said it before, and I'll (with apolog...I've said it before, and I'll (with apologies to Dave) say it again here, "craft" is meaningless if you're looking for it in the beer. <br />Craft is what the brewer does (and how and why they do it). An aside: of course this can be done with the aid of automation - I don't believe that anyone with any sense <a href="http://www.fuggled.net/2012/06/computerised-craft.html" rel="nofollow">says it can't</a>.<br /><br />And Dave, yes, Hardknott's a microbrewery. No question.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-83216071832496414622012-06-13T17:56:07.701+01:002012-06-13T17:56:07.701+01:00Zak,
I'm sure Cookie could get more than a lo...Zak,<br /><br />I'm sure Cookie could get more than a look at a furry gnasher for the price of petrol station flowers.<br /><br />Olly, exactly, where to draw the line? Green King I'm sure make at least some beers that are progressive enough to be called craft. For the reason, it is perhaps not too much of a leap of faith to call them craft brewers.<br /><br />But, microbrewery definition suffers the same problem. When is a brewer too big to no longer be a microbrewer? I've even been accused of being too big to be a microbrewer, simply because I'm about three times the size of some of the smallest around here.....Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-46728009865167435662012-06-13T17:31:39.809+01:002012-06-13T17:31:39.809+01:00I had a sample of Green King's 5X at the East ...I had a sample of Green King's 5X at the East Anglian beer festival recently. That ticks all the 'craft' boxes, but does it make Greene King a craft brewer? <br /><br />I'm still not comfortable with the 'craft' definition. And it now seems that a number of breweries/pubs are using it purely to sound cool because it somehow associates them with BrewDog and the like.<br /><br />And for the record, I pretty much only drink beers from microbreweries. Hey, there's a term we don't see much of anymore - how about using that instead? Far less ambiguous than 'craft'.OllyChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12269081729980022648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-88332314100358538672012-06-13T15:43:11.214+01:002012-06-13T15:43:11.214+01:00Cookie - I'm sure there is someone locally who...Cookie - I'm sure there is someone locally who will show you their furry gnasher for a priceZak Averyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10650929798289995172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-4935695218977775242012-06-12T17:30:42.387+01:002012-06-12T17:30:42.387+01:00Certain tastes are learned, Dave, but some are inh...Certain tastes are learned, Dave, but some are inherited traits. Phenols I think is one. Bitter markers for sure come down to genetics<br /><br />http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/29/4/535.full<br /><br />As for letting myself get brainwashed into craft beer, only if the club has something as cool as the furry gnasher badge of the Dennis the Menace club. One of them, and I'm in.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-85367136743660525712012-06-12T17:18:31.965+01:002012-06-12T17:18:31.965+01:00Stringers, I think it's beards, tattoos and fa...Stringers, I think it's beards, tattoos and facial piercing that define craft beer people.<br /><br />That's us out then.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-51245695740700807582012-06-12T17:05:49.249+01:002012-06-12T17:05:49.249+01:00Oh bravo Cookie, I think that sums it up very well...Oh bravo Cookie, I think that sums it up very well. Of course none of this is any different to the lifestyle adverts that are used to advertise so many different commodities.<br /><br />Why do people often say "I don't like bitter" when asked if hey would like to try a cask beer? I have proved on occasions that the very same person, when given the very same beer chilled and fizzed, loves it. Well providing it's actually more like a light mild, rather than a bitter that is.<br /><br />I doubt there is a genetic influence that results in a particular person liking or not liking a particular beer. It has to be influence from culture, advertising, peer pressure (Is this different to culture?)<br /><br />Of course this is the infamous brainwashing by big nasty chemical fizz makers that is mentioned by some activists in a certain organisation. But then, this organisation arguably also brain washes in equal counter proportions.<br /><br />That's life. That's humanity. It's been happening ever since our ancestors learnt, or evolved, the power of language.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-89378971961459467572012-06-12T17:02:18.242+01:002012-06-12T17:02:18.242+01:00Cookie, you also get to choose between the old-sch...Cookie, you also get to choose between the old-school real-ale beard and the more modern arrangements of facial hair associated with the "craft" movement. <br /><br />Phil's right, of course. Craft beer is beer made by craft brewers, and we <b>are</b> great, we are.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-13292296738149278942012-06-12T16:50:00.366+01:002012-06-12T16:50:00.366+01:00I get what Jon says and in a world of cashpoints, ...I get what Jon says and in a world of cashpoints, self service supermarket tills, on line banks we do so much that previous generations did with human contact.<br /><br />It is nicer to speak to a butcher when you buy pork chops and have some notion that the pig was well cared for, lived a happy life and was called "Peppa", and those with either the time or money might choose to do that rather than self scan a packet of sausages at Tesco.<br /><br />Beer and pubs are a social thing and an intangible notion that fits your world view would be as appealing as the tangible product qualities. It's nice to relax with comforting notions of craftsmen and artists. Nicer than big industrial smoke belching factories.<br /><br />Zaks comment sort of resonates too. I suspect clubs like CAMRA rely as much on the social nature of being part of something. People would buy into it on a promise of being in some sort of notional group or club. Same with craft beer, by necking it I join something.<br /><br />If it sells product, what's the harm?<br /><br />I don't see much of a difference to the lifestyle led marketing of Carling lager, though, that tell me if I neck it I'll have mates.<br /><br />I guess the choice is whether I want mates that have beards or not.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-28407252343847860942012-06-12T16:42:24.939+01:002012-06-12T16:42:24.939+01:00Bloody hell, Zak - eighteen months? Now I feel old...Bloody hell, Zak - eighteen months? Now I feel old.<br /><br />FUBU is about the size of it - or "For Us (And Our Fans), By Us". Or as I said in that post,<br /><br /><i>“Craft beer”, at least in the UK, seems to mean nothing much more than “a beer made by a member of the club of people who like using the term ‘craft beer’”.</i><br /><br />To test this theory: "Tesco's selling four-packs of Punk IPA in cans now. Nice, but not exactly a <b>craft</b> beer, is it?"<br /><br />On reflection, I think craft <b>beer</b> is the wrong focus - what matters for people who use the word is the idea of craft <b>brewers</b>. They're great, they are.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-36803038901121971902012-06-12T16:36:55.824+01:002012-06-12T16:36:55.824+01:00Zak, the world is divisive. If it were not you wou...Zak, the world is divisive. If it were not you would not be able to compete against supermarkets who are selling beer at a much lower price that you are.<br /><br />That doesn't mean I don't understand or agree with your concerns, which is why I take time to explain that everyone is different. If you like, the beer world, like any other interest, is subdivided by overlapping subsets.<br /><br />Nothing wrong with that and indeed to some extent I'm trying to give a nod towards embracing that very fact.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-43047992742491171992012-06-12T15:44:42.526+01:002012-06-12T15:44:42.526+01:00Some people are prepared to choose, & pay for,...Some people are prepared to choose, & pay for, the "bull" and the romanticism and other intangibles - like some kind of perceived relationship with an actual brewer - over a cheaper product from a faceless corporation. They're not irrational, they're buying something that's not necessarily inside the bottle. Cookie maybe doesn't want to buy that - but that's not because he's stupid, or not discerning. Maybe he just plain doesn't want it.<br /><br />P.S. we'd be screwed without our accountant.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-80482772764874048912012-06-12T15:40:44.464+01:002012-06-12T15:40:44.464+01:00Not wishing to spoil the spirit of true romanticis...Not wishing to spoil the spirit of true romanticism developing here, but perhaps I can change back to the original theme for just a moment... ;)<br /><br />Maybe you're right Dave, and we will never actually define craft beer, but you've probably come closest of anyone yet to capturing the essence of what it means to me. The sense of real people behind the beer, the inspiration that comes through that beer from the brewer to the drinker, and the influence of the brewer ahead of the accountant, all ring true.<br /><br />Whenever the term craft is applied I do think it is important to be able to offer some sort of calibration as to how that term is being used - with so many different understandings across different people it would be easy to be talking at cross purposes. This came home to me only this week - in considering the creation of a craft beer festival for Birmingham I felt it important we try and agree amongst the organisers what we mean by craft beer, to be able to explain that to our target audience, and to set the expectations of our potential customers accordingly. Your themes of people and influence hit the spot, at least for me, perfectly.<br /><br />Obviously, no brewery business is going to survive for any length of time if it doesn't pay some attention to the bottom line overall, not withstanding the less tangible benefits of potential loss-makers (on paper, anyway) such as the English Experiment, but that doesn't mean that the influence of the accountant, or shareholders (whether that is the sole owner of the business or the "city") need to eclipse the passion and inspiration of the brewer. Being profitable, and maximising profit before all else, are not the same.<br /><br />Maybe I ought to caveat these comments by pointing out that I have received a free bottle of beer from Dave recently, but do not believe this has in any way affected my integrity or influenced my opinions on this matter!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-47592037288686598992012-06-12T15:40:42.902+01:002012-06-12T15:40:42.902+01:00The thing about saying “this is who I am and these...The thing about saying “this is who I am and these are the people with whom I belong” is that it's insular and divisive - it's a "for us, by us" thing. Fine, if it's for you and your mates, but why would anyone buy into it on that promise? See <a href="http://ohgoodale.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/careful-now/#comment-176" rel="nofollow"> my FUBU comment from 18 months ago.</a>Zak Averyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10650929798289995172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-11978474139823490942012-06-12T15:40:40.399+01:002012-06-12T15:40:40.399+01:00Not wishing to spoil the spirit of true romanticis...Not wishing to spoil the spirit of true romanticism developing here, but perhaps I can change back to the original theme for just a moment... ;)<br /><br />Maybe you're right Dave, and we will never actually define craft beer, but you've probably come closest of anyone yet to capturing the essence of what it means to me. The sense of real people behind the beer, the inspiration that comes through that beer from the brewer to the drinker, and the influence of the brewer ahead of the accountant, all ring true.<br /><br />Whenever the term craft is applied I do think it is important to be able to offer some sort of calibration as to how that term is being used - with so many different understandings across different people it would be easy to be talking at cross purposes. This came home to me only this week - in considering the creation of a craft beer festival for Birmingham I felt it important we try and agree amongst the organisers what we mean by craft beer, to be able to explain that to our target audience, and to set the expectations of our potential customers accordingly. Your themes of people and influence hit the spot, at least for me, perfectly.<br /><br />Obviously, no brewery business is going to survive for any length of time if it doesn't pay some attention to the bottom line overall, not withstanding the less tangible benefits of potential loss-makers (on paper, anyway) such as the English Experiment, but that doesn't mean that the influence of the accountant, or shareholders (whether that is the sole owner of the business or the "city") need to eclipse the passion and inspiration of the brewer. Being profitable, and maximising profit before all else, are not the same.<br /><br />Maybe I ought to caveat these comments by pointing out that I have received a free bottle of beer from Dave recently, but do not believe this has in any way affected my integrity or influenced my opinions on this matter!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-28021898516613160262012-06-12T15:26:08.799+01:002012-06-12T15:26:08.799+01:00Do a whole new blog posting, Dave, on how I might ...Do a whole new blog posting, Dave, on how I might get a few more early nights from the squeeze through the use of craft beer rather than Pinot Grigio.<br /><br />Not of course that I'm suggesting getting lasses pissed before jumping on them. Nooo. Nice romantic gestures that make them feel cared for and loved before jumping on them.<br /><br />Why not start with a run down on the knicker loosening effects of each of your beers.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-44560607443450757792012-06-12T15:05:22.615+01:002012-06-12T15:05:22.615+01:00Cookie, you know, I'd much rather we focussed ...Cookie, you know, I'd much rather we focussed our conversation on the relative advantages of using romanticism for the benefit of getting a bit now and again......Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-79488873427905705042012-06-12T14:55:38.068+01:002012-06-12T14:55:38.068+01:00Fair enough but why the big downer on accountants?...Fair enough but why the big downer on accountants?<br /><br />My point was more about financial than cost accountants, but even cost accountants aren't evil. I don't need cost accountancy but I suspect even a small scale artisanal outfit like yours would benefit from some activity based costings. I suspect the only reason you don't is that for a small outfit it isn't worth the expense. It you were a hundred times bigger it would be.<br /><br />Whether you'd use that information to debase the product or make a better product or make the same product more efficiently is your choice. The information itself isn't bad.<br /><br />I've worked for big evil corporations and truth is they are not evil. Often stupid but rarely evil.<br /><br />Oh and admit it, you'd like to make a profit, profit isn't bad, isn't an exploitation and is no more than a justified return on your risk and capital.<br /><br />Nowt wrong with saying you want to retire one day richer than you are now through your own hard work and efforts.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-58627463467093344072012-06-12T14:26:31.889+01:002012-06-12T14:26:31.889+01:00You are right, our accountant is a decent fella. A...You are right, our accountant is a decent fella. And, like yours, he doesn't tell us how to brew beer. But, unlike bigger enterprises, neither does he look at the detail of costs and influence what we decide to put in the beer.<br /><br />Equally, having talked to John Keeling, I know some larger breweries, like Fullers, have people like John on the board of directors. John is at liberty to fight the case for good and characterful beer and this happens because Fullers are sensible enough to have a brewer on the board.<br /><br />Romantic beer? Why not? Indeed, it is the romantic notions of the enthusiastic brewers who make up our notional Craft Beer world that is part of the attraction for me, and many others I suspect.<br /><br />Besides, as you well know, a bit of faux romanticism helps smooth the way with the squeeze, so I'd expect that to be right up your street.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.com