tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post3000036101257239728..comments2024-03-09T04:57:25.956+00:00Comments on HardKnott Dave's blog about stuff: The ever-fragmenting beer-worldAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-51694505387189481412010-12-14T14:12:00.363+00:002010-12-14T14:12:00.363+00:00Stringers, I understand what you are saying, but I...Stringers, I understand what you are saying, but I doubt I'm going to change anything if I join.<br /><br />I fully accept my feelings towards SIBA might be unfair, but that's the way I feel. I should also point out that these feelings were there before BrewDog came out and said what they did. You wouldn't have to look far to find the beer writer that was there the day I had a strong discussion about it in a pub near here.<br /><br />I write about what I see in the industry. I write about it the way I see it. Rightly or wrongly that is what I do and I doubt that will change if I join SIBA.<br /><br />Most importantly I welcome your comments in return and value your opinion. You might even convince me to change my opinion, as Ed in his comments may do also.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-87410508515393544052010-12-14T11:07:10.492+00:002010-12-14T11:07:10.492+00:00Dave, I know this has been covered somewhat over h...Dave, I know this has been covered somewhat over <a href="http://stringersbeer.blogspot.com/2010/12/brewdog-join-our-gang.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> but it's not easy for me to let this pass - you may very well have the "suspicion that [SIBA] has matured into something that is less than entirely useful to the micro-brewer", but what do you do about it?<br /><br />You don't join it, even though you'd be welcome to, even though your heroes (by which I mean Brewdog of course) are doing (have done?). <br /><br />I have my reservations about SIBA, but I'm a member, so if I had the time I could do something through the internal democratic processes to change it. Indeed that's one of the problems - the smaller brewers don't usually have the time, they're too busy brewing, it's only the bigger businesses who can have the luxury of investing staff time in the running of the organisation. For the benefit I get from that - thanks. <i>(In fairness, <b>some</b> smaller brewers have been very active.)</i><br /><br />It's very easy to subscribe to the idea that there are entrenched interests making it hard for the brewing mavericks to get the access and the recognition they deserve, but really, SIBA? These are the people whose hard work might well be giving BD access to the Enterprise estate. Which those radical iconoclasts seem to want so much, that they're happy to cosy up with the people they claim to have bad-mouthed them.<br />I mean (as they say), come on.StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-79027466495426747172010-12-13T18:02:20.508+00:002010-12-13T18:02:20.508+00:00The on-sale price is also influenced by the extent...The on-sale price is also influenced by the extent to which the Pub Co rips off the licensee.Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-1320773963212176862010-12-13T17:53:40.130+00:002010-12-13T17:53:40.130+00:00Nev, I don't know how our relative drinking ex...Nev, I don't know how our relative drinking experiences compare, but I do notice that there is a link.<br /><br />Of course, we do have to be careful not to confuse the variations caused by the venue we drink in. I see the supply price as the measure. The on-sale price is governed by the very real added-value that is applied by the venue. That is a whole different issue all together.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-20179027907530405312010-12-13T17:38:33.878+00:002010-12-13T17:38:33.878+00:00As an experienced drinker, I have never seen any c...As an experienced drinker, I have never seen any correlation whatsoever between beer price and quality.Neville Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923209266005338452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-86436143976230025542010-12-13T16:45:59.772+00:002010-12-13T16:45:59.772+00:00Phil, lets rewind a little shall we;
"The dr...Phil, lets rewind a little shall we;<br /><br />"<i>The drift towards premium products at premium prices strikes me as a very bad thing.</i>"<br /><br />Why? Because premium quality should be available to everyone? Why should the beer market be a special case?<br /><br />Adrian, I totally agree. Price does not ensure quality. There is a correlation though, for the reasons Phil has stated. But of course, as you have already suggested, we could argue forever about what is good beer.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-14314388609630413402010-12-13T16:13:07.422+00:002010-12-13T16:13:07.422+00:00I don’t have a problem with the pricing of beer, f...I don’t have a problem with the pricing of beer, five years ago I spent 15 quid on a bottle of Deus which I still have, but the chain of thought seemed to imply that you thought that only expensive beer was good, I could open my Deus tomorrow and match it against a fresh pint of Proper Job in my local and the PJ might win — when I used to drink wine I’ve paid money for what I would have thought were good vintages and been sorely disappointed, but I would quali at paying 50k for a bottle of whisky even if I had the money, there comes a stage when prices gets silly, bit like a million quid cars or a 5k phone I saw an article about, that’s just vulgar.Adrian Tierney-Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05421802854011395300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-78983906662447156722010-12-13T16:10:00.978+00:002010-12-13T16:10:00.978+00:00What Phil and I have been discussing, at least thi...<i>What Phil and I have been discussing, at least this is my understanding, is whether ANY beer can be expensive.</i><br /><br />No, that's not what I thought we were arguing about. There are lots of reasons why a beer is expensive: the brewer has blown the profits in advance on marketing, the brewery has eccentrically chosen to set up in the middle of Chelsea and needs to pay the rent, or (more respectably) the beer has expensive ingredients and an expensive manufacturing process.<br /><br />What I thought we were arguing about was whether there's any correlation between price and quality: will a very good beer generally also be a very expensive beer? I'm saying that this hasn't been true in the past, and I really wish people weren't trying to make it come true in future.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-78686574212291727562010-12-13T15:52:42.444+00:002010-12-13T15:52:42.444+00:00Just for good measure, here is a better link to th...Just for good measure, <a href="https://www.lfw.co.uk/acatalog/Springbank.html#a386" rel="nofollow">here is</a> a better link to the whisky that is a very silly price.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-36232418876132756312010-12-13T15:48:07.167+00:002010-12-13T15:48:07.167+00:00Adrian,
We seem to be confusing two issues here.
...Adrian,<br /><br />We seem to be confusing two issues here.<br /><br />What Phil and I have been discussing, at least this is my understanding, is whether ANY beer can be expensive. I say it can and Phil seems to me to be saying no beer should be.<br /><br />Why a beer can be expensive might well be a moot point. Whisky and wine can be expensive simply due to its rarity value. A very quick search found me a <a href="https://www.lfw.co.uk/cgi-bin/ss000001.pl?RANDOM=NETQUOTEVAR:RANDOM&PAGE=SEARCH&SS=&TB=A&PR=9&GB=O&ACTION=Search" rel="nofollow">whisky at £50,000</a> a bottle.<br /><br />Is it worth it? not to me, but possibly someone might think so.<br /><br />I agree very much that what makes a good beer is open to interpretation. Is Meantime beer worth what they are asking? I don't know as I have never looked at the price of their beer. But, judging by the success of Meantime enough people think they are worth it.<br /><br />I do not see why anyone should have a problem with breweries or bars charging what their business model demands. If someone doesn't like it then ignore it - just like I ignore <a href="http://www.gucci.com/uk/category/m/men_s_shoes" rel="nofollow">Gucci Shoes</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-14882936465363653312010-12-13T15:17:39.701+00:002010-12-13T15:17:39.701+00:00I had one of the AB’s, but not the 4 so not qualif...I had one of the AB’s, but not the 4 so not qualified to comment, but the point I have a problem with is that you seem to be arguing that the more expensive a beer the better it is, which, if one wanted to be tedious, could then takes us to the debate about what is good beer. Then it’s back to the medieval monastery for a good debate about how angels you can get on a pin.Adrian Tierney-Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05421802854011395300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-29050636494286345482010-12-13T14:01:08.795+00:002010-12-13T14:01:08.795+00:00Ghost, Ill have to confess to enjoying this little...Ghost, Ill have to confess to enjoying this little bit of drama.<br /><br />Phil, perhaps we have to agree to disagree then.<br /><br />Adrian, the reasonably priced BrewDog beer in supermarkets is only what I'd class as reasonably good beer, at the top end of this bracket I'll grant. Their exceptional beer is the likes of AB:04. Have you tried it yet? It's really very good indeed.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-89737445572328070012010-12-13T13:55:06.918+00:002010-12-13T13:55:06.918+00:00‘Reasonably priced beer will probably only ever be...‘Reasonably priced beer will probably only ever be reasonably good.’<br /><br />Eh? So where does that leave the likes of BrewDog’s bottled beers in the supermarkets, which are reasonably priced, or Harvey’s Best Bitter in the pub, which is hardly premium priced and so on.Adrian Tierney-Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05421802854011395300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-64954379204799084492010-12-13T13:28:26.403+00:002010-12-13T13:28:26.403+00:00Reasonably priced beer will probably only ever be ...<i>Reasonably priced beer will probably only ever be reasonably good.</i><br /><br />Not in my experience.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-15575391983745564722010-12-13T13:11:47.470+00:002010-12-13T13:11:47.470+00:00Good Points there Dave. You've gotta love a bi...Good Points there Dave. You've gotta love a bit of drama!! it makes life so much more fun and interesting.Ghost Drinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00753576955816756710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-17999541564295512932010-12-13T13:06:42.524+00:002010-12-13T13:06:42.524+00:00Tandleman, totally agree that price and quality ar...Tandleman, totally agree that price and quality are not always appropriately linked.<br /><br />Phil, not withstanding that comment to Tandleman, in my view totally exceptional beer is always going to carry a higher price tag. Is Meantime priced appropriately? That is for you to decide.<br /><br />Reasonably priced beer will probably only ever be reasonably good.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-69576851923568042542010-12-13T12:50:35.403+00:002010-12-13T12:50:35.403+00:00You are effectively saying that it IS a middle of ...<i>You are effectively saying that it IS a middle of the road drink suitable for the common man only.</i><br /><br />Where do you get "middle of the road" or "common man"? What I'm saying is that it's possible to brew some mind-blowingly wonderful stuff without going down the ultra-premium route, and without charging punters an arm and a leg. I think great beer at affordable prices is a Good Thing - and for the idea to get about that great beer goes with silly prices would be a very Bad Thing, particularly if we care about the numbers of people who drink decent beer.<br /><br />I'm afraid Meantime are heading up a dead end - and they won't notice for some time, because (a) they'll get enough punters to make it pay and (b) those punters will be only too willing to tell them how wonderful the beer is and how well suited it is to sophisticated palates like what they got.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-83286244280177688612010-12-13T12:42:16.704+00:002010-12-13T12:42:16.704+00:00"Really good beer really does cost more."..."Really good beer really does cost more."<br /><br />I'd have been happier if there was a couple of qualifiers in that sentence. I've had plenty really good beer that doesn't. And plenty of not so good "premium beer" that does.Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-67844714345575397542010-12-13T11:43:32.201+00:002010-12-13T11:43:32.201+00:00Phil, they are premium products at premium prices....Phil, they are premium products at premium prices. The ingredients cost more, the processes cost more.<br /><br />Meantime condition all their beers for a minimum of one month, the cost of owning enough stainless steel, and the space to locate it, is significant by itself.<br /><br />All markets are going to have a premium end to it. Why should beer not be the same as other markets?<br /><br />You are effectively saying that it IS a middle of the road drink suitable for the common man only. Where we came in. This discussion is going to go round in circles.<br /><br />Really good beer really does cost more.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-6534885865389300522010-12-13T11:27:01.231+00:002010-12-13T11:27:01.231+00:00I am not in anyway suggesting that the poor uneduc...<i>I am not in anyway suggesting that the poor uneducated masses, if indeed such a demographic exists anymore in the UK</i><br /><br />Have you been in a Wetherspoons lately?<br /><br /><i>can't understand good beer</i><br /><br />Good. Have you been in a Wetherspoons lately? (They're selling all those beers to someone, and it can't all be visiting tickers.)<br /><br /><i>Meantime for instance is proof that upmarket beer can happen. What's wrong with that? Is it overpriced nonsense?</i><br /><br />Much, much worse than that - it's overpriced <b>good beer</b>. I work part-time (not by choice) and I really resent being told that I can't afford to buy a good bottle of beer. The drift towards premium products at premium prices strikes me as a very bad thing.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-60530273602495165022010-12-13T09:26:14.035+00:002010-12-13T09:26:14.035+00:00Stringers, I suspect they will have to be Cyclopse...Stringers, I suspect they will have to be Cyclopsed. I do hope they give James a sedative, whatever you might think of him, he doesn't deserve that sort of treatment fully conscious.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-48841669430512575662010-12-13T09:22:13.628+00:002010-12-13T09:22:13.628+00:00With you on Cyclops Dave - it's really patroni...With you on Cyclops Dave - it's really patronising. Will BD be getting their beers "Cyclopsed" now?<br />Since: "<i>As you well know Enterprise Inns are the biggest customer of SIBA DDS, and they have [...] announced that [...] all ales that Brewers wish to be listed with them must be Cyclops accredited.</i>"StringersBeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12573068197944669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-65013342603462850602010-12-13T08:47:41.288+00:002010-12-13T08:47:41.288+00:00As the craft beer world grows, the organisations, ...As the craft beer world grows, the organisations, (like CAMRA and SIBA) need to grow with it or else they will become sidelined. Brewdog have done more to raise the profile of Craft Brewing in Britain than anyone else. Over here in Canada they are probably the best known modern craft brewer and are introducing a new generation of North Americans to British BeerThe Beer Wranglerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02304982005390021729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-9750144857316549042010-12-13T08:37:27.216+00:002010-12-13T08:37:27.216+00:00Thanks for your comments Phil, there is perhaps a ...Thanks for your comments Phil, there is perhaps a fine line between slagging off the beers that others like and having a constructive discussion about it.<br /><br />I think there is a lot of good beer readily available in many pubs. There is also a lot of rubbish beer in very many more pubs.<br /><br />However, perhaps I have failed to get across what I mean by people who appreciate good beer. I am not in anyway suggesting that the poor uneducated masses, if indeed such a demographic exists anymore in the UK, can't understand good beer.<br /><br />There does seem to be an underlying feeling from some sectors of the beer world that beer should not have an upmarket sector. Meantime for instance is proof that upmarket beer can happen. What's wrong with that? Is it overpriced nonsense? Of course I don't think so, but if you do then you are entitled to that view. If that makes beer more accessible to more people, including posh people who have more money than sense, than in my book that is good.<br /><br />The premium end of the beer market is never going to be mainstream, if it were it would not be premium anymore. A bit like BMW really - I remember when someone who owned a BMW was very well off. Now BMW are incredibly ubiquitous and so have lost their prestige. (Or perhaps everyone is much more well off than we used to be) If the motor world didn't appreciate Ferrari because everyone should have access to some sort of car then it would be an odd world.<br /><br />So, let us carry on slagging of the beers each of us like, but increase our understanding of each others perspective.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-54143703800601083782010-12-13T08:10:29.984+00:002010-12-13T08:10:29.984+00:00we have to be brave enough to discuss what we feel...<i>we have to be brave enough to discuss what we feel about our own view of the beer world</i><br /><br />Don't complain when I slag off beers you like...<br /><br /><i>why do we have to have a delineation across the beer world and keep falling out over it? </i><br /><br />...but don't slag off the beers that I like!<br /><br />I found this post incredibly tendentious and one-sided (as pleas for open-mindedness and tolerance often are). I mean, who has actually said that beer is or should be <i>a middle of the road drink suitable for the common man only</i> or that it <i>only deserve[s] to be found in <b>seedy</b> places</i>?<br /><br />I believe good beer should be <b>available</b> to ordinary people in ordinary pubs, and I would like to see town pubs becoming less seedy places (<a href="http://ohgoodale.wordpress.com/2010/08/18/my-local-number-2-in-a-series-of-4/" rel="nofollow">I've seen it happen</a>). I think it's a complete fallacy that the people "able to understand" beer are "educated intellects with refined palates". Unless you're adopting <a href="http://boggleabout.blogspot.com/2010/12/from-spambox.html" rel="nofollow">the Meantime model</a> of selling incredibly sophisticated versions of beer as an elite luxury good, in which case it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - you can bet that anyone able to pay £15 a bottle on a regular basis will have a tremendously refined palate, or at least think they have.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.com