tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post1767412607035766803..comments2024-03-09T04:57:25.956+00:00Comments on HardKnott Dave's blog about stuff: What makes a great pub?Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-63848335704431518622008-12-16T08:57:00.000+00:002008-12-16T08:57:00.000+00:00I believe that I agree with you. One objection I h...I believe that I agree with you. One objection I have, obviously not with your pub, is that many pubs do not have a discernable style. Many pubs lack character and offer a very limited set of services of its customers. I have been turned away from such characterless pubs because I had a child with me. He actually wants some crisps and a drink. Thankfully, there are many of places to soak up the unwanted offers of service for cash. This utlimiately leads to more pub closures.Damianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06801407227835928211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-31794049353063153722008-12-15T18:47:00.000+00:002008-12-15T18:47:00.000+00:00Tyson,Thanks for your very interesting comments. I...Tyson,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your very interesting comments. I'm still trying to get to grips with what I can learn from the Americans. There is good and bad I think.<BR/><BR/>I'm very busy here in snowy Oregon, brewing beer using imperial units. lbs and ozs and very undersized pints and gallons.<BR/><BR/>Hopefully I'll come up with some conclusions of my own soon.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-83375690388170887712008-12-12T07:06:00.000+00:002008-12-12T07:06:00.000+00:00Ooooooh...I think this American concept is best di...Ooooooh...<BR/><BR/>I think this American concept is best discussed over a lovely game of croquet. Beverages will be provided.Brewers Union Local 180https://www.blogger.com/profile/05786517873195170945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-947803489156119962008-12-11T20:56:00.000+00:002008-12-11T20:56:00.000+00:00Interesting as always, Dave. Whilst Tandleman lets...Interesting as always, Dave. Whilst Tandleman lets his apple strudel digest, I’ll jump in with my twopenny worth. Where to begin, though? I’ll just have to dive in and work my way round! Also I think you were writing more as a publican whilst I’m looking at it as solely as a customer. With that caveat, let the fun begin...<BR/><BR/>Firstly, I don’t think the tie in itself is inherently bad. Obviously it has been abused by pubcos, but as you know, they have many bad practices that frustrate and hinder landlords. And customers. In my mind, however, there are clear distinctions between non-brewing pubcos, and regional brewers who own pubs. Certainly there is no case at all for pubcos to be able to enforce the tie. This is where the vast majority of problems lie. They are the ones who have grown fat and bloated. If they want to treat pubs as merely property chattels, then they should be treated as mere landlords who are entitled to rent and nothing else. How the pub tenants earn that rent is nothing to do with them and the government should remove the tie from these pubs. Also, as we all know, pubcos such as Enterprise etc are far too big and limits should be placed on how many they can own. <BR/><BR/>Now to the family and regional brewers. Take Hydes, for example. They own about 80 pubs. I can’t see a problem with someone brewing and wanting a guaranteed outlet for their product. Pubcos screw suppliers on price and then screw tenants, before finally screwing the customer with high prices. On the other hand, operators such as Hydes offer cask (and other drinks) at reasonable prices, often at the heart of communities. But my liking for them isn’t borne out of sentimentality-yes they do have historical resonance, but they offer a good service and have done for many years. Jeff P tried to tar the Family Brewers with the same brush as the likes of Punch etc. His example was ill judged as Tandleman pointed out. Not only are Greene King not a member of the IFBB, but the vast majority of them aren’t even PLCs’ but limited companies. Indeed, one of the largest regionals-Sam Smiths-aren’t even a limited company! Hardly corporate stalkers. I agree losing Tetley is no biggie. I’m all for the breakup of the national brewers. But then again, they didn’t own any pubs, so are not strictly relevant to the issue of the tie. <BR/><BR/>Locally our brewers are family owned and have family members running them. Are we to throw out the baby with the bathwater? It’s regionals such as Everards and Batemans, with their fixed rent scheme, I think that are showing us the way forward.<BR/><BR/>“For me the tie restricts the abilities of smaller community pubs to be flexible and limits the customer base to a bland, one size fits all, mass produced, mass marketed and go large style product range”. Maybe for the many pubco keg houses, but not in the Manchester brewers pubs I visit. In them I see the opposite of what you portray, with a good mix of people and beer that people come back to drink time after time. A worry for me is what will happen if the tie is removed from the family brewers. Ok we lose some beers but there are others out there as you say. The problem is we’ve lost pubs selling cask (that I and others like) and gained...? Some of these pubs may start selling some good beer, but there’s no guarantee that they will. Or even that they will have cask on. So on that basis alone, I reject the universal removal of the tie. I just don’t think it will benefit me, and drinkers like me.<BR/><BR/>Thinking long and hard about it, I can’t agree with your portrayal of the advantageous ambience etc of the freehouse, either. Yes I agree that the very best free house will beat the tied pub. However, although I visit freehouses a lot, my experience is that they mainly lack the rapport and ambience you find in a good tied pub. They are the ones with transient customers (and staff), so that even though they may have a good product range, they’re only good for visiting and don’t really do it as a “local.” <BR/><BR/>I’m with you 100% as to pubcos buying up freehouses. That can be the only reason, as you say, as to why freehouses are (seemingly), more likely to fail. However, I treat these figures with some suspicion, as I’ve not seen the data they’re based on. It’s awhile since I did O level maths, but there seems something odd about the claims that the pubcos make. We know that freehouses only make up a very small percentage of pubs. Now if there are 5 pubs closing a day, then logic dictates that the vast majority of these must be pubcos-something they deny. And yet, according to my records 100% of the pubs closed locally have been pubcos. Am I in another dimension? I think not...<BR/><BR/>Hopefully I’ve given you some idea as to why I think the tie can be a good thing-in certain, very precise circumstances. It’s a complex area that does need airing. I often think that if so many of the freehouses hadn’t been bought up, then we wouldn’t need this debate, as there would be plenty of scope for all. <BR/><BR/>Now where did I put my sparkler...<BR/><BR/>ps I don't think the American system can teach us anything. Unless its how bad things can be WITHOUT a tie.Sat In A Pubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08123038980796000837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-32097087729376201472008-12-10T21:57:00.000+00:002008-12-10T21:57:00.000+00:00Damian,It's down to style, Some pubs need to be ch...Damian,<BR/><BR/><A>It's down to style</A>, Some pubs need to be child friendly, some are better not being. Personally I don't mind children in a pub providing they understand it is an adult environment. If the pub becomes a kindergarten I think it's a problem.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-51002706741917756332008-12-10T21:21:00.000+00:002008-12-10T21:21:00.000+00:00What about child-friendly policies?What about child-friendly policies?Damianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06801407227835928211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-42850558665357602192008-12-10T13:13:00.000+00:002008-12-10T13:13:00.000+00:00I sometimes wonder why Britain bothers with the EU...I sometimes wonder why Britain bothers with the EU, given we have exceptions for this, that and next thing.Alistair Reecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15929927359428659775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-29764951119161696282008-12-10T11:43:00.000+00:002008-12-10T11:43:00.000+00:00I like the sound of the Everard's scheme, but I do...I like the sound of the Everard's scheme, but I don't think it's common.<BR/><BR/>My knowledge of competition laws is almost non-existent, so it would be foolish for me to comment. I have a vague notion that there is an EU exception that allows the British tied system Jeff P seems to know about it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11319272987951077205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2446074078505386356.post-83597398662579534522008-12-10T08:32:00.000+00:002008-12-10T08:32:00.000+00:00I like the scheme which Everard's have introduced ...I like the scheme which Everard's have introduced whereby they sub-let some of their pubs to smaller micro-brews, thus giving them a valuable outlet, for example one of the pubs I visited in Oxford was an Everard's pub sub-let to the White Horse Brewery.<BR/><BR/>However I think the American system is worth considering as an alternative (and I assuming here that I have understood the system correctly), whereby a brewery can not be a distributor or own pubs.<BR/><BR/>I wonder if the tie could fall foul of anti-trust and anti-competition laws in some way?Alistair Reecehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15929927359428659775noreply@blogger.com